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Post by lawrence on Feb 4, 2009 1:36:38 GMT -6
Moonbeam, Lotus, what do we do then?, except execute all murderers? is that the only way? because LWOP seems to be just as contentious as the DP.
If we go down that route, where will it end, execution for jaywalking, spitting on the streets. Obviously I'm being facetious but what do we do. Tims said LWOP which is an idea but then we would get the Human rights activists, the liberals and liberty etc etc saying that that is inhumane.
People DO make mistakes and its horrible when it goes wrong but the alternative is a lot worse in my eyes. Ive always said LWOP should mean that for the most heinous crimes but when a judge sentences a criminal to a jail term and he does that time, what do we do with him/her when that time is up or they are ready for parole. Keep them locked up for ever. I understand your feelings over this but i am looking at differently from you. What do we do about it if we don't execute them all or keep them locked up for ever?.
We could change the systems and get different experts i suppose but that wont change anything, people make the decisions to sentence, people make the decision to release on parole. If some kill again, its tragic and awful for those involved but i don't understand your argument. What do we do? you have not came up with an alternative idea.
What do we do. We cant stop all murder, thats a fact, we can try to avoid it happening but we cant be sure with a 100% certainty that they will not kill again when released. i cant see what else we can do. I wasn't being blase about they kill again so what, its tragic, terrible but it happens, It was a statement. Some do, thats a fact, but again what is the alternative and who's going to pay for that alternative? You cant lock up everyone for ever.
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Post by Moonbeam on Feb 4, 2009 3:55:28 GMT -6
I just have to say one thing to you Lawrence, imagine for one awful moment, someone horribly murdered someone very dear to you ............................
Would you feel happy they were released from prison in ten/fifteen or 20 years, having served their sentence (done their time)? Your family member would still be dead and you think you'd feel the murderer should be able to start over living their life?
Not everyone, Lawrence, only murderers.
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Post by lawrence on Feb 4, 2009 4:22:31 GMT -6
Im not debating that fact moonbeam, im asking what do we do, lock them up for ever? anyone pushed hard enough can kill, i know that from experience. Imjust saying that people who make the decisions to release on parole are human, they make mistakes. Judges follow gudelines on sentencing so they just do their job no matter how bad we see their decisions.
Answering your question i would be gutted if that happened but i would blame the system for letting them out in the first place but again i ask the question. When they have done their time, or they are due for parole and they are deemed fit to rejoin society by these professionals. If we dont let them out what is the alternative.
Believe me i understand where your coming from but for me i want to know whats the alternative. Some will kill and that sucks but not all rehabilitated murderers kill again. Personally 1st degree murder should mean LWOP and nothting less, the rest sentenced when finished must be givene that chance for rehabilitation.
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Post by ltdc on Feb 4, 2009 11:35:16 GMT -6
The answer is simple. LWOP and throw away the keys. I have the feeling that prisons seem nowadays more concerned with locking people up during the sentence and then letting them out without any check on whether or not they are still dangerous to the public. On the other hand as many are private, that I suppose makes economic sense. and yet that still (again, and again and again)doesn't answer the question posed to you. never mind, it's certainly not the first time if there were true LWOP then there would be no reason to determine whether or not a person was still a danger as you state above, because he should not be released ever, for any reason. period. it would not matter what changes occur to the inmate, he could become educated, learn a useful skill, write childrens books, cure cancer, apologize for his criminal past, doesn't matter. NOTHING he does or changes should matter because if you want true LWOP then anything short of dieing in prison would be a joke. do you support that?
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Post by Lauren on Feb 4, 2009 14:36:40 GMT -6
Im not debating that fact moonbeam, im asking what do we do, lock them up for ever? anyone pushed hard enough can kill, I believe the lack of self-control is one of many criteria for being a psychopath. I understand people loose control all the time. Someone makes them angry; had a stressful day at work ect...However, the majority of the people that are "Pushed hard enough" don't kill. Your right. I honestly believe that Karla Homolka will not kill again, because she is not stupid enough to put herself back in prison. I however, do not believe she is by any means rehabilitated. The day she was released from prison, when asked about the killings she said she enjoyed killing those poor girls and was not sorry for her actions. LWOP is only good, if the DP is on the table, otherwise Sophie's Choice would be involved. If you had to choose between two equal evil people, would you rather have the person who made the deal rotting in prison for life without parole, while the other recieves the DP, or parole after 14 years, while the other is in there for life?
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Tim S
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Post by Tim S on Feb 5, 2009 0:31:03 GMT -6
The answer is simple. LWOP and throw away the keys. I have the feeling that prisons seem nowadays more concerned with locking people up during the sentence and then letting them out without any check on whether or not they are still dangerous to the public. On the other hand as many are private, that I suppose makes economic sense. and yet that still (again, and again and again)doesn't answer the question posed to you. never mind, it's certainly not the first time if there were true LWOP then there would be no reason to determine whether or not a person was still a danger as you state above, because he should not be released ever, for any reason. period. it would not matter what changes occur to the inmate, he could become educated, learn a useful skill, write childrens books, cure cancer, apologize for his criminal past, doesn't matter. NOTHING he does or changes should matter because if you want true LWOP then anything short of dieing in prison would be a joke. do you support that? Just as well as the dp is only for certain crimes so LWOP would be for certain crimes. We have to face the fact that most will at sometime be let out. Lets make sure that the public is as safe as possible. I am against a defined length of sentence. For some it must be locked away until we are 99% certain that you can be let out safetly. Can we agree on something like that?
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mike5
Banned
Ai! Ai! Ai! Ai! Ay!
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Post by mike5 on Feb 5, 2009 0:40:14 GMT -6
and yet that still (again, and again and again)doesn't answer the question posed to you. never mind, it's certainly not the first time if there were true LWOP then there would be no reason to determine whether or not a person was still a danger as you state above, because he should not be released ever, for any reason. period. it would not matter what changes occur to the inmate, he could become educated, learn a useful skill, write childrens books, cure cancer, apologize for his criminal past, doesn't matter. NOTHING he does or changes should matter because if you want true LWOP then anything short of dieing in prison would be a joke. do you support that? Just as well as the dp is only for certain crimes so LWOP would be for certain crimes. We have to face the fact that most will at sometime be let out. Lets make sure that the public is as safe as possible. I am against a defined length of sentence. For some it must be locked away until we are 99% certain that you can be let out safetly. Can we agree on something like that? IOW, you are against LWOP.
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Tim S
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Post by Tim S on Feb 5, 2009 5:53:39 GMT -6
Just as well as the dp is only for certain crimes so LWOP would be for certain crimes. We have to face the fact that most will at sometime be let out. Lets make sure that the public is as safe as possible. I am against a defined length of sentence. For some it must be locked away until we are 99% certain that you can be let out safetly. Can we agree on something like that? IOW, you are against LWOP. I agree that what I wrote was somewhat difficult to understand. For the worst crimes LWOP. Other crimes a period of time and released only if one is as certain as possible that the public is safe.
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Post by ltdc on Feb 5, 2009 13:34:23 GMT -6
and yet that still (again, and again and again)doesn't answer the question posed to you. never mind, it's certainly not the first time if there were true LWOP then there would be no reason to determine whether or not a person was still a danger as you state above, because he should not be released ever, for any reason. period. it would not matter what changes occur to the inmate, he could become educated, learn a useful skill, write childrens books, cure cancer, apologize for his criminal past, doesn't matter. NOTHING he does or changes should matter because if you want true LWOP then anything short of dieing in prison would be a joke. do you support that? Just as well as the dp is only for certain crimes so LWOP would be for certain crimes. We have to face the fact that most will at sometime be let out. Lets make sure that the public is as safe as possible. I am against a defined length of sentence. For some it must be locked away until we are 99% certain that you can be let out safetly. Can we agree on something like that? we can agree that that is not true LWOP but rather standard indeterminate sentencing. and making sure that someone is safe before releasing them is a great idea but not always possible. if you are sentenced to say a standard indeterminate sentence of 1 to 15 years, then you might be let out before 15 years but you can't be held beyond 15 years. no matter how bad you are, or potential continued threat you may be, once you do 15 years, you're out. no strings attached
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Post by gman on Feb 5, 2009 19:09:12 GMT -6
Some do, thats a fact, but again what is the alternative and who's going to pay for that alternative? You cant lock up everyone for ever. Lock them up forever. When you take a life you are taking everything from someone. Their present and their future. Everything they ever dreamed of doing with their life, gone. No tomorrow, no next week, no next year. Gone, for good. But that's not all. Each violent death leaves scars. Life is never the same. Some families, friends, children, lovers never recover. Most do, but life is different now - their dreams will always be coloured red and black because of what they have lost. A circle of grief and pain that sweeps out in a brutal ever expanding circle. That circle never stops. As brutal as the event affects those dearest the rest of us feel the subtle effects as well. That life is gone, that potential for good is gone. No children will follow, no grandchildren either. Every generational possibility dormant forever. Society's priceless potential, gone for good. So, yeah, lock them up forever, because the results of their actions will never end, even when they themselves are gone, for good.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2009 21:35:58 GMT -6
Some do, thats a fact, but again what is the alternative and who's going to pay for that alternative? You cant lock up everyone for ever. Lock them up forever. When you take a life you are taking everything from someone. Their present and their future. Everything they ever dreamed of doing with their life, gone. No tomorrow, no next week, no next year. Gone, for good. But that's not all. Each violent death leaves scars. Life is never the same. Some families, friends, children, lovers never recover. Most do, but life is different now - their dreams will always be coloured red and black because of what they have lost. A circle of grief and pain that sweeps out in a brutal ever expanding circle. That circle never stops. As brutal as the event affects those dearest the rest of us feel the subtle effects as well. That life is gone, that potential for good is gone. No children will follow, no grandchildren either. Every generational possibility dormant forever. Society's priceless potential, gone for good. So, yeah, lock them up forever, because the results of their actions will never end, even when they themselves are gone, for good.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2009 22:11:27 GMT -6
Some do, thats a fact, but again what is the alternative and who's going to pay for that alternative? You cant lock up everyone for ever. Lock them up forever. When you take a life you are taking everything from someone. Their present and their future. Everything they ever dreamed of doing with their life, gone. No tomorrow, no next week, no next year. Gone, for good. But that's not all. Each violent death leaves scars. Life is never the same. Some families, friends, children, lovers never recover. Most do, but life is different now - their dreams will always be coloured red and black because of what they have lost. A circle of grief and pain that sweeps out in a brutal ever expanding circle. That circle never stops. As brutal as the event affects those dearest the rest of us feel the subtle effects as well. That life is gone, that potential for good is gone. No children will follow, no grandchildren either. Every generational possibility dormant forever. Society's priceless potential, gone for good. So, yeah, lock them up forever, because the results of their actions will never end, even when they themselves are gone, for good.
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Post by Kay on Feb 6, 2009 6:02:21 GMT -6
Some do, thats a fact, but again what is the alternative and who's going to pay for that alternative? You cant lock up everyone for ever. Lock them up forever. When you take a life you are taking everything from someone. Their present and their future. Everything they ever dreamed of doing with their life, gone. No tomorrow, no next week, no next year. Gone, for good. But that's not all. Each violent death leaves scars. Life is never the same. Some families, friends, children, lovers never recover. Most do, but life is different now - their dreams will always be coloured red and black because of what they have lost. A circle of grief and pain that sweeps out in a brutal ever expanding circle. That circle never stops. As brutal as the event affects those dearest the rest of us feel the subtle effects as well. That life is gone, that potential for good is gone. No children will follow, no grandchildren either. Every generational possibility dormant forever. Society's priceless potential, gone for good. So, yeah, lock them up forever, because the results of their actions will never end, even when they themselves are gone, for good. On occasion, being at this board, makes utter and complete sense, thank you Grant, for creating one of those moments.
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Post by Lauren on Feb 6, 2009 7:35:00 GMT -6
Sadly in Canada, we don't have that option . Excellent Post, btw.
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Post by gman on Feb 6, 2009 7:38:49 GMT -6
To you guys. G
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Post by yasgursfarm on Feb 6, 2009 14:01:35 GMT -6
I voted 30 years. I would prefer LWOP but without that as a choice, I voted 30........30 years is still better than a life sentence here in Australia. I couldn't vote death, sorry. How about '30 years and when he gets out he moves in next door to you?'
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Post by Donnie on Feb 6, 2009 23:06:45 GMT -6
The question you should be asking is: Why was he let out? He was let out because he was still alive. That is probably why nobody has ever claimed that the DP was the cure for everything. But the DP is certainly the best cure for a murderer's illness.
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Post by lawrence on Feb 7, 2009 4:16:33 GMT -6
Nobody but nobody has come up with an alternative apart from hypothesis. Lock them up, this, and that, Thats opinions. What do we do if the sentencing system's in our respective countries have rules and regulation by which judges have to adhere too.
Also if we throw away the key for murder , is that all murder, manslaughter leaves scares be it dangerous driving, accidental death at work due to negligence, not looking after your pit bull in the area of children, do we lock them up and throw away the keys. Its such a simple statement to make but no one has come up with an alternative on what do we do. We all have professionals in place that make decisions that can and do sometimes cost lives. thats a fact. We can only do what we think is best and defend that when it goes wrong.
All death G leaves scares not only on the victim and the killer. I still have nightmares and i was a bloody cook in uniform, wrong place at the wrong time but i killed. I live with that all the time when i am alone or when i start to think about statements such as yours. I have scares. Who the f*** helps me? No one. I don't get the help like some scum who kill for kicks or are evil. They should never be freed but the ones who didn't mean to take life can not be locked up for ever. Thats ridiculous no matter how painful for the victims family. I have often thought about that and yes i include myself in this argument if it was to happen to me but again thats hypothetic. I dont really know how i would feel until it happens. no one does unless they have been through it.
I try to deal with my p[personal battle by convincing myself it was them or me and i was a soldier but it still eats me every Day of my life. If no one can come up with an alternative we have options. Elections, lobby your mp, governor etc and when the vote e comes, vote accordingly. The DP is a punishment and nothing more then for those crimes deemed most horrific, lwop is for those who are convicted of murder but with mitigating circumstances and they are eligible for parole. If they are not going to be released at some date who is going to pay for that. You, me? bloody right we will. So what is the alternative.
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Post by gman on Feb 7, 2009 6:33:43 GMT -6
Nobody but nobody has come up with an alternative apart from hypothesis. Lock them up, this, and that, Thats opinions. What do we do if the sentencing system's in our respective countries have rules and regulation by which judges have to adhere too. Big problems, especially social problems, should be based on moral principles. What you call 'hypothesis' I call principle. No. What we are talking about, or at least what I am talking about, is renegotiating what we think of murder. We in the West have accepted that murder is the worst of all crimes, yet we are unwilling to punish accordingly. That's the problem. Basically, if all present alternatives are unsatisfactory then we need a new set of solutions. I fail to see your point. I believe murder creates scarring well beyond what you are describing above. I am not belittling your stress over what you have done Lawrence, how could I, but we are talking about murder here. It is a different type of killing. Lawrence, there is no other alternative. You can not insure 100% that a convicted murderer will not kill again. So, if you want to release some back into the pool you are going to get some sharks. The alternative is to either execute them, or lock them away forever. You are looking for answers where there are none, yet the alternative is right there in front of you - you just don't like it.
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