well, if so i was lacking. It's the system, not the judge This explains why so many innocents get punishment. This judge said "no matter DNA evidenced he didn't rape that girl, becouse he could have raped another girl". LOL
It is neither. This man was given ample opportunity to present a case for innocence to a jury. The burden of proof is on the state not the accused.
belsogno, I would truly enjoying hanging around to finish this, but duty calls.
In closing I will offer this; you are debating the guilt or innocence of a man that confessed to the crime. Debate the penalty; not the verdict.
I am sure we can continue this at a later date, ciao
Re: Sharon Keller support thread « Reply #182 on Apr 27, 2009, 1:40pm »
Sub i can confess becouse I am stupid, I am fanatic, I am mad ecc ecc or even becouse Police force me to do that. Is it enough to send somebody to prison for the rest of his life or evene to the gurney? I don't think so. In this case I am arguin the verdict
Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 7,034 Location: The Deadmines, Westfall.
Re: Sharon Keller support thread « Reply #183 on Apr 27, 2009, 1:46pm »
Yes it is. If he confessed to the crime and the evidence was there, and the judge and jury were convenced beyond a reasonable doubt, then the guy was guilty.
Lets look at a case a scumpal is supporitng on PTO. She is supporting a guy named mark stroman. He murdered a convience store worker that was born in a foreign country who now lived here in Texas. This man was trying to earn a living supporting his family. stroman came in killed him and took money from the register. Now, I am not sure how it is in Italy, but those stores are full of video cameras and they record EVERYTHING that happens on that store. The murder could have been shown to a jury that would SEE stroman firing the shots into the clerk. How much more proof do you need that the guy did the crime...???
"Our process works, and I don't see anything out there that would merit calling for a moratorium on the Texas death penalty... It's fair and appropriate, and we will continue with it." Rick Perry
belsogno Guest
Re: Sharon Keller support thread « Reply #184 on Apr 27, 2009, 1:50pm »
Elric, here there is a clear evidence, a camera recorded video. This is different. What i am attacking it's a conviction based just on a confession.
Re: Sharon Keller support thread « Reply #185 on Apr 27, 2009, 1:52pm »
If a petitioner claims actual innocence based on newly discovered evidence, it is called a Herrera claim. The petitioner must show by clear and convincing evidence that no reasonable juror would have convicted him in light of the new evidence. Ex parte Elizondo, 947 S.W.2d 202, 209 (Tex. Crim. App. 1996).
Clear and convincing is not as high a burden as beyond a reasonable doubt. However, if one juror would still find him guilty, he loses his writ.
Bolstering the arguments that Keller made to deny Criner's writ, if I remember it right, Crimer went around bragging to people that he raped and killed this girl.
"The following facts are not in dispute. The day after her son was reported missing, Petitioner was asleep at her father’s house in Florence, Arizona, when sheriff’s deputies arrived. (RT 1/11/10 at 132-33.) Upon being awakened by her stepsister and informed of the deputies’ presence, she replied, “What the *f---* do they want?” (RT 1/12/10 at 25.) "
What a mom!
belsogno Guest
Re: Sharon Keller support thread « Reply #186 on Apr 27, 2009, 1:53pm »
sorry if I bother What's " a burden".what does it mean?
"Our process works, and I don't see anything out there that would merit calling for a moratorium on the Texas death penalty... It's fair and appropriate, and we will continue with it." Rick Perry
J.B.S. Officer Member of the Month - 11/06 member is offline
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Re: Sharon Keller support thread « Reply #188 on Apr 27, 2009, 2:06pm »
sorry if I bother What's " a burden".what does it mean?
At any trial..
one of the first instructions the judge gives the jury is that the defendant has a "presumption of innocence" . That the defendant is considered innocent unless the prosecution proves with the evidence that the defendant is guilty.
So the prosecution has to present evidence to convince the jury that the defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt - so it is their responsibility to prove guilt - they have the burden of proof.
The accused can appeal for numerous reasons, but in each case he must prove the grounds for the appeal. Most importantly, if after convicted, you appeal that you are innocent; then, you must prove innocence beyond all doubt. He failed to do this.
I don't want to question your education here but are you really, 100 % sure that it is like that - that the accused then has to prove his own innocence and that even beyond all doubt? To be honest, that hit me like a train.
My grandfather once told me that there were two kinds of people: those who do the work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the first group; there was much less competition. - Indira Ghandi
I've learned that life is one crushing defeat after another, until you just wish Flanders was dead. - (My spiritual leader) Homer Simpson
belsogno Guest
Re: Sharon Keller support thread « Reply #190 on Apr 27, 2009, 2:20pm »
Thakn you JBS. I got it perfectly, we call that "onere".
So the burden is on the state on first trial, then it moves on the defendant on appeal, am I right?
The accused can appeal for numerous reasons, but in each case he must prove the grounds for the appeal. Most importantly, if after convicted, you appeal that you are innocent; then, you must prove innocence beyond all doubt. He failed to do this.
I don't want to question your education here but are you really, 100 % sure that it is like that - that the accused then has to prove his own innocence and that even beyond all doubt? To be honest, that hit me like a train.
I got hit also, i can't believe, but each country has its own laws
I don't want to question your education here but are you really, 100 % sure that it is like that - that the accused then has to prove his own innocence and that even beyond all doubt? To be honest, that hit me like a train.
I got hit also, i can't believe, but each country has its own laws
so how many times does the state have to prove guilt in your system?
The accused can appeal for numerous reasons, but in each case he must prove the grounds for the appeal. Most importantly, if after convicted, you appeal that you are innocent; then, you must prove innocence beyond all doubt. He failed to do this.
I don't want to question your education here but are you really, 100 % sure that it is like that - that the accused then has to prove his own innocence and that even beyond all doubt? To be honest, that hit me like a train.
Beyond all doubt may be a bit heavy on the rhetoric, but it is pretty close for this argument and it is always question my education. It keeps me honest.
we have just one merit appeal. And the burden is also on the state.
My daughters murderer that is on death row gets 8 levels of appeals (if I am remembering the number correctly) here in Texas paid for by the state. Any prisoner can file more appeals if someone pays for it, or an attorney will do it pro bono.
His lawyers file the appeals claiming what they say was wrong. The Appeals attorneys for the state/prosecution respond to the issues they raise, filing their own papers with the court. The judges decide the merits of the claims in the appeals after reviewing the arguments from both sides.
Some people here more versed in the law may be able to explain it better.
But that is what I have seen happen through 5 appeals so far, and am awaiting the court's decision on that one.
I got hit also, i can't believe, but each country has its own laws
so how many times does the state have to prove guilt in your system?
In Germany you cannot appeal the evidence in murder cases, only the application of the law and this only once to the Federal Court of Justice. If something went wrong with the evidence you need to retrial the case. But this is due to a very different understanding of legal procedure in criminal cases.
My grandfather once told me that there were two kinds of people: those who do the work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the first group; there was much less competition. - Indira Ghandi
I've learned that life is one crushing defeat after another, until you just wish Flanders was dead. - (My spiritual leader) Homer Simpson
Lisa Fanatic Member of the Month - 9/07 member is offline
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Re: Sharon Keller support thread « Reply #198 on Apr 27, 2009, 3:21pm »
we have just one merit appeal. And the burden is also on the state.
My daughters murderer that is on death row gets 8 levels of appeals (if I am remembering the number correctly) here in Texas paid for by the state. Any prisoner can file more appeals if someone pays for it, or an attorney will do it pro bono.
His lawyers file the appeals claiming what they say was wrong. The Appeals attorneys for the state/prosecution respond to the issues they raise, filing their own papers with the court. The judges decide the merits of the claims in the appeals after reviewing the arguments from both sides.
Some people here more versed in the law may be able to explain it better.
But that is what I have seen happen through 5 appeals so far, and am awaiting the court's decision on that one.
This is something I wish I understood better. It's so confusing.
"That the ever present potentiality in California of the death penalty, for murder in the commission of armed robbery, each year saves the lives of scores, if not hundreds of victims of such crimes, I cannot think, reasonably be doubted by any judge who has had substantial experience at the trial court level."
~ The Honorable B. Rey Shauer, Justice of the Supreme Court of California
J.B.S. Officer Member of the Month - 11/06 member is offline
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Re: Sharon Keller support thread « Reply #199 on Apr 27, 2009, 3:26pm »
so how many times does the state have to prove guilt in your system?
In Germany you cannot appeal the evidence in murder cases, only the application of the law and this only once to the Federal Court of Justice. If something went wrong with the evidence you need to retrial the case. But this is due to a very different understanding of legal procedure in criminal cases.
The first 3 appeals here will review the trial, if the evidence should have been allowed or not. Three different courts, each one at a higher level, review the trial here.
Then the rest of the appeals have basically challenged the evidence again, and raised ineffectiveness of counsel claims. Teh prosecution/state has to respond to each of those claims in their papers they file at each level of appeal too.
It is all gone over many times here, by many courts, each court reviewing the conclusions of the lower previous one as well - when it is a capital case.
J.B.S. Officer Member of the Month - 11/06 member is offline
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Re: Sharon Keller support thread « Reply #200 on Apr 27, 2009, 3:36pm »
Here is a description of the appeals process in Texas. This is information that is given to the survivors, so more in layman's terms and maybe easier to understand. There are many levels of appeal in many courts.
The first 3 appeals here will review the trial, if the evidence should have been allowed or not. Three different courts, each one at a higher level, review the trial here.
Then the rest of the appeals have basically challenged the evidence again, and raised ineffectiveness of counsel claims. Teh prosecution/state has to respond to each of those claims in their papers they file at each level of appeal too.
It is all gone over many times here, by many courts, each court reviewing the conclusions of the lower previous one as well - when it is a capital case.
On the one hand appeals are good because we all want justice and not just actionism. But when I try to think about what you have to endure because of this it's just beyond me to understand this complex system. I hope you have enough strength in you to go through all this. I don't know if I were able to.
My grandfather once told me that there were two kinds of people: those who do the work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the first group; there was much less competition. - Indira Ghandi
I've learned that life is one crushing defeat after another, until you just wish Flanders was dead. - (My spiritual leader) Homer Simpson
J.B.S. Officer Member of the Month - 11/06 member is offline
Joined: May 2003 Gender: Female Posts: 4,758 Location: Texas
Re: Sharon Keller support thread « Reply #202 on Apr 27, 2009, 3:47pm »
The first 3 appeals here will review the trial, if the evidence should have been allowed or not. Three different courts, each one at a higher level, review the trial here.
Then the rest of the appeals have basically challenged the evidence again, and raised ineffectiveness of counsel claims. Teh prosecution/state has to respond to each of those claims in their papers they file at each level of appeal too.
It is all gone over many times here, by many courts, each court reviewing the conclusions of the lower previous one as well - when it is a capital case.
On the one hand appeals are good because we all want justice and not just actionism. But when I try to think about what you have to endure because of this it's just beyond me to understand this complex system. I hope you have enough strength in you to go through all this. I don't know if I were able to.
I haven't had to go to any hearings yet. All so far has been filed by briefs, and reviewed by courts, no oral arguments yet. But they made it very clear to us what would be involved from the beginning. And whether anyone thinks it is a good debate point or not, I believe it is for the protection of others, so that is something I am committed to.
It is all out of my hands and all I can do is watch from here, but I know from his blogs that people post on the internet for him that he is still trying to hurt people even from his cell - and still proud of it - just like he bragged about the murders he committed on the outside.
And I will always believe that it is worth it if it will be done, and that his execution is the only guarantee that he will never hurt anyone anywhere ever again. How much should be enough to show people that? I know you do not agree, but 3 people (that we know of) murdered because of him should be enough in my book.
Here is a description of the appeals process in Texas. This is information that is given to the survivors, so more in layman's terms and maybe easier to understand. There are many levels of appeal in many courts.
Thanks for posting this. It's as if the more I read, the more confused I get. I guess there's too much going on simultaneously for my poor old brain to absorb. For example. This article is in the DMN today. I have no idea where in the process Prieto & Valle are.
Supreme Court refuses Texas death row inmate's appeal
12:57 PM CDT on Monday, April 27, 2009 Associated Press
HOUSTON – A Dallas-area man condemned for an attack that left three people dead during the robbery of their home in San Antonio more than 15 years ago has moved a step closer to execution with the U.S. Supreme Court's refusal to review his case.
Arnold Prieto, 35, is one of three men convicted in the fatal stabbings of Rudolfo Rodriguez, 72, his wife, Virginia, 62, and Paula Moran, 90, a family friend of the San Antonio couple.
In another Texas death row case, the high court has refused to review the case of Yosvanis Valle, 33, a Cuban native and alleged gang member. He was condemned for the fatal shooting 10 years ago of a drug dealer in Pasadena, just outside Houston.
"That the ever present potentiality in California of the death penalty, for murder in the commission of armed robbery, each year saves the lives of scores, if not hundreds of victims of such crimes, I cannot think, reasonably be doubted by any judge who has had substantial experience at the trial court level."
~ The Honorable B. Rey Shauer, Justice of the Supreme Court of California
Re: Sharon Keller support thread « Reply #204 on Apr 27, 2009, 4:23pm »
Except that there would no longer be any issues based on the penalty phase, abolishing the DP would make no difference in the length of the appeal process. You have the same rights of appeal for all cases-- whether capital or not.
"The following facts are not in dispute. The day after her son was reported missing, Petitioner was asleep at her father’s house in Florence, Arizona, when sheriff’s deputies arrived. (RT 1/11/10 at 132-33.) Upon being awakened by her stepsister and informed of the deputies’ presence, she replied, “What the *f---* do they want?” (RT 1/12/10 at 25.) "
What a mom!
J.B.S. Officer Member of the Month - 11/06 member is offline
Joined: May 2003 Gender: Female Posts: 4,758 Location: Texas
Re: Sharon Keller support thread « Reply #205 on Apr 27, 2009, 4:26pm »
Here is a description of the appeals process in Texas. This is information that is given to the survivors, so more in layman's terms and maybe easier to understand. There are many levels of appeal in many courts.
Thanks for posting this. It's as if the more I read, the more confused I get. I guess there's too much going on simultaneously for my poor old brain to absorb. For example. This article is in the DMN today. I have no idea where in the process Prieto & Valle are.
Supreme Court refuses Texas death row inmate's appeal
12:57 PM CDT on Monday, April 27, 2009 Associated Press
HOUSTON – A Dallas-area man condemned for an attack that left three people dead during the robbery of their home in San Antonio more than 15 years ago has moved a step closer to execution with the U.S. Supreme Court's refusal to review his case.
Arnold Prieto, 35, is one of three men convicted in the fatal stabbings of Rudolfo Rodriguez, 72, his wife, Virginia, 62, and Paula Moran, 90, a family friend of the San Antonio couple.
In another Texas death row case, the high court has refused to review the case of Yosvanis Valle, 33, a Cuban native and alleged gang member. He was condemned for the fatal shooting 10 years ago of a drug dealer in Pasadena, just outside Houston.
Thanks for posting this. It's as if the more I read, the more confused I get. I guess there's too much going on simultaneously for my poor old brain to absorb. For example. This article is in the DMN today. I have no idea where in the process Prieto & Valle are.
Supreme Court refuses Texas death row inmate's appeal
12:57 PM CDT on Monday, April 27, 2009 Associated Press
HOUSTON – A Dallas-area man condemned for an attack that left three people dead during the robbery of their home in San Antonio more than 15 years ago has moved a step closer to execution with the U.S. Supreme Court's refusal to review his case.
Arnold Prieto, 35, is one of three men convicted in the fatal stabbings of Rudolfo Rodriguez, 72, his wife, Virginia, 62, and Paula Moran, 90, a family friend of the San Antonio couple.
In another Texas death row case, the high court has refused to review the case of Yosvanis Valle, 33, a Cuban native and alleged gang member. He was condemned for the fatal shooting 10 years ago of a drug dealer in Pasadena, just outside Houston.
It would help if the article were accurate enough to include what level it is at.
Checking the USSC website, both are denials of petitions from 5th Circuit decisions. So, unless they make up some Newly! Discovered! Evidence! Of! Actual! Innocence! -- they're screwed.
"The following facts are not in dispute. The day after her son was reported missing, Petitioner was asleep at her father’s house in Florence, Arizona, when sheriff’s deputies arrived. (RT 1/11/10 at 132-33.) Upon being awakened by her stepsister and informed of the deputies’ presence, she replied, “What the *f---* do they want?” (RT 1/12/10 at 25.) "
we have just one merit appeal. And the burden is also on the state.
My daughters murderer that is on death row gets 8 levels of appeals (if I am remembering the number correctly) here in Texas paid for by the state. Any prisoner can file more appeals if someone pays for it, or an attorney will do it pro bono.
His lawyers file the appeals claiming what they say was wrong. The Appeals attorneys for the state/prosecution respond to the issues they raise, filing their own papers with the court. The judges decide the merits of the claims in the appeals after reviewing the arguments from both sides.
Some people here more versed in the law may be able to explain it better.
But that is what I have seen happen through 5 appeals so far, and am awaiting the court's decision on that one.
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